Francis Berger
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Problems Defining and Describing Time or Timelessness

6/9/2026

7 Comments

 
Eternal is a difficult, ambiguous word.

In the past, I used it to describe Beings, which I assume have no beginning and no end.

Unfortunately, this led some to believe that such Beings must also exist entirely outside time. Or that they never change.

However, I regard time as a necessary aspect of Beings and cannot imagine any Being existing outside time.

Which means I assume all Beings change.

Yeah, but how can Beings that have no beginning and no end be “in” time? Where does that time start? What kind of time is it?

More on that in another post, perhaps.

Back to eternal. I do my best to work around it to avoid confusion about timelessness.

But what else is there?

Unfortunately, other words are rarely helpful.

Everlasting? Misunderstandable.

Neverending? Also implies a beginning.

Forever? Okay, but from when?

Perpetual?

Primordial?

Of course, my problem is not novel. It has affected and continues to affect others.

For example, for some thinkers, eternal means both timeless and temporal, as in the assumption that God is timeless without Creation and temporal after He created time.

Others describe God as everlasting but temporal, and use it to mean that God never began to exist and will never go out of existence, but experiences temporal succession.

That kind of lines up with what I assume, but whenever I use the word everlasting, it is misinterpreted as having a beginning but no end.

Eternal is not a straightforward word.

Unfortunately, most of the other words aren’t much better.

We need to coin some new words, tout de suite.


Note: Toute de suite is French for “immediately” (just in case Dr. Charlton reads this). 
7 Comments
Laeth
6/9/2026 21:05:01

i think it relevant that etymologically eternal means an age, that is, a long time, but not forever. but as usual theologians quickly exagerated.

Reply
Francis Berger
6/10/2026 07:23:20

@ Laeth - That underscores the ambiguity inherent in words like eternal. I sense this ambiguity has always existed. Definitions of such words depended heavily on the assumptions and motivations of the individuals or groups who use them and continue to use them.

What gets me is the lack of interest in discovering how someone may be using a word. Instead, we get assertions that it means this and nothing else.

However, definitions are not cut-and-dry. The following off-the-cuff example, taken from an internet encyclopedia on the subject of God and time, reveals the crux of the problem with eternal and its various definitions:

"As a result, the term, “eternal” has come to be either ambiguous or a general term that covers various positions. In this article, the term, “eternal” will be used to refer to God’s relation to time, whatever it is. The term “temporal” will refer to God as within time and “timeless” will designate God as being outside time."

Even here the word can't just be used but must be further qualified.

Reply
bruce g charlton
6/10/2026 08:47:21

As you know, I think the real problem is that time is not a detachable concept. As soon as people try to discuss "time" - is if it was a physical entity or phenomenon detachable from beings - they go wrong and get ineradicably confused.

The confusion is that physics uses an abstraction of time as a way of "saving the appearances": i.e. generating models. But that doesn't make it real; any more than quantum descriptions are real (as those who first devised them knew).

These abstractions are no more real than "economic man" is an actual person or group of people - such things are just a more-or-less useful way of modelling some particular aspect of reality - like those ingenious medieval Orrery devices to calculate and predict planet movements; wheels-within-wheels that (more or less) replicated observations - well enough for their purposes.

But the wisest people did not believe that the mechanical device was a picture of reality. Unfortunately people believe that Time *is* a picture of reality!

Reply
Francis Berger
6/10/2026 14:22:39

@ Bruce - "As soon as people try to discuss "time" - is if it was a physical entity or phenomenon detachable from beings - they go wrong and get ineradicably confused."

Yes, your observations on this subject have been of immense help to me in this regard.

Reply
Wm Jas link
6/11/2026 14:58:29

I believe the technical term in philosophy for something which exists in time but has no beginning or end is "sempiternal."

Reply
Francis Berger
6/11/2026 21:28:59

@ Wm - Yes, I like that term but it only really works if one assumes time has no beginning.

Reply
Anthony Probst
6/23/2026 03:48:36

The last part of your post reminds me of a toy marketed in the US long ago. I'm not making this up. It was a press that molded pieces of a chewy candy into two halves of a whistle. They could be stuck together and blown, then eaten.

The name? Toot Sweet. "It's the sweet treat that you tweet and eat."

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